tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post3073482897554610636..comments2024-03-28T13:58:37.846-04:00Comments on The Passionate Foodie: Rant: U.S. Sake vs Japan Sake--Context Is EverythingRichard Auffreyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-78501222822865662582011-11-17T10:06:44.014-05:002011-11-17T10:06:44.014-05:00Anonymous:
As Blake himself indicates the table ...Anonymous:<br /> As Blake himself indicates the table rice and tap water are the reasons why he feels U.S. sake is inferior to Japanese sake, it is certainly a material question to ask him to explain why that is so. <br /><br />In addition, it is wrong to provide a single example of U.S. sake and then indict all U.S. sake. Would it be fair to judge the French wine industry based on only Georges Duboeuf Nouveau Beaujolais? Obviously not. <br /><br />Blake also overgeneralized in his conclusions, when in actuality he was apparently referring only to premium Japanese sake. That category only occupies 25% of the entire industry.Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-59766957632408416952011-11-17T09:46:11.244-05:002011-11-17T09:46:11.244-05:00why does table rice make poorer sake, why does tap...why does table rice make poorer sake, why does tap water make poorer sake?? both these are interesting questions but utterly immaterial to the questions of which nation makes better sake.<br /><br />Likewise 1000's of years of experience vs 30 years of experience, neither matter one jot to the question who makes better sake unless you're planning to handicap brewers like you would golfers.<br /><br />honestly i'm a wine professional, what i know about sake could fit on the back of a small postage stamp but Mr Grey is one of my favourite wine writers precisely because he's not one for sacred cows or judging booze on anything other than its own merits.<br /><br />A drink that tastes like pigswill might well have been made by a team of well trained helper monkeys, it might well be a massive achievement for them to create anything other than a bottle of monkey pee but that doesn't stop it tasting like pigswill right??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-57346039001336541212011-11-15T14:11:37.170-05:002011-11-15T14:11:37.170-05:00Hi Carlos:
Thanks for your comments and glad you...Hi Carlos:<br /> Thanks for your comments and glad you appreciated the discussion. Hope you enjoy the sake, and can convince your friends to maybe try some as well.Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-43904121892088225222011-11-15T14:08:10.032-05:002011-11-15T14:08:10.032-05:00Thanks Dewey for providing more information about ...Thanks Dewey for providing more information about SakeOne. There is certainly not enough discussion about sake in the U.S. so it is always good to for us to share our passion with others, to hopefully intrigue them enough to try some sake. Based on several Twitter responses, this did seem to be the case.<br /><br />Kanpai!Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-5634409135907370552011-11-15T14:06:03.593-05:002011-11-15T14:06:03.593-05:00Hi Ben, thanks for your comments too. And kudos to...Hi Ben, thanks for your comments too. And kudos to you for your efforts to help promote sake.Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-46602758786874903672011-11-15T14:04:45.929-05:002011-11-15T14:04:45.929-05:00Thanks Jason for your comments. I am not exactly s...Thanks Jason for your comments. I am not exactly sure why they closed in 1988, but have been trying to find out. If I do learn the reason, I will be sure to tell you.Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-43581612926674841062011-11-15T11:42:58.958-05:002011-11-15T11:42:58.958-05:00Excellent points from all sides. Thank you for gi...Excellent points from all sides. Thank you for giving us a bit more insight into where the American sake market stands right now.<br /><br />SakeOne's comment yesterday was just brilliant. It was elegant, humble, and made me want to go find and sample their Junmai Ginjo asap! I have some friends who have never gotten away from the fruitier flavored wines, perhaps they would enjoy a bottle of Moonstone?<br /><br />Thank you all for an excellent read. And thank you, SakeOne, for helping to bridge the divisive cultural gap that, apparently, sake can be.<br /><br />Kanpai!Carlos R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-67360173367023883722011-11-14T18:35:29.494-05:002011-11-14T18:35:29.494-05:00Gentlemen, SakeOne is honored and a bit perplexed ...Gentlemen, SakeOne is honored and a bit perplexed to have gained your attention and been the center of a debate. We believe that Blake's idea of a tasting is warranted but do note that the U.S. Sake appraisals accomplish this each year. Last year our Momokawa Ruby attained a Silver medal in this elite judging of more than 300 sake, most of which are from Japan. It was the first time our Oregon sake stood shoulder to shoulder with our Japanese teachers. Our efforts do not stop there but continue each day as our team strives to brew the finest sake made in America. <br /><br />Everything about what we do here in our brewing processes is deeply based in Japanese brewing tradition and has been guided by master brewers from Momokawa Brewing of Aomori Prefecture Japan and Yoshinogawa, the oldest brewer in Niigata Prefecture. Their combined 600+ years of brewing provides undeniable substance to their comments, criticisms and pats on the back. <br /><br />You both make some very important points and the debate is a viable one. We'll stay out of the debate itself but wish to clarify a few points.<br /><br />-Our water source does indeed get channeled through the Forest Grove, Oregon water system, which means it is "tap water." This seems to imply something dirty, or less than pure but even in Japan there are areas where they take pride in the purity of their tap water just as we do. Anyone who has visited our area knows that our tap water runs pure and clean. Its soft and tastes almost sweet with little to no measurable iron or manganese which have a negative effect on the brewing process and can lead to some less than desirable flavors. Our tap water is actually most often better than water from our wells. Just turn the knob, fill a glass and you'll understand. This is why we chose to brew sake here.<br /><br />-While we do bottle flavor-infused sake under our Moonstone brand it represents only about 23% of what we make and has proven to be a wonderful gateway sake just like sweet fruity wines of days gone by. But that is not our focus, nor what we sell the most of. Pure Junmai Ginjo with diverse flavor profiles make up the rest. <br /><br />Lastly, as Blake notes, brewers in Japan work very hard to carve out a continued living in sake as young people opt for beer, wine and whisky. These people are our teachers and friends who have great hope that our efforts of brewing and educating people about sake will increase overall demand and build a strong market for their sake in America. They provide us with on-going support both for our brewing as well as a range of fantastic sake of their own that we import and distribute across the U.S. We honor them every day by continuously improving what we do, all the while keeping our hearts tied to the rich history of sake and our eyes to its future. <br /><br />We raise a glass to the passion you both convey. Kanpai!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15464367469756488544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-64630740901206467842011-11-14T17:01:59.534-05:002011-11-14T17:01:59.534-05:00After reading this and Blake Gray's referenced...After reading this and Blake Gray's referenced article, I am inclined to agree with Richard. And the main sticking point for me is that this "who's better?" question is posed in the first place. Given the infant state of US sake production, there is little need or basis to make such a comparison. This is like asking in 1984 if US craft brewing is as good as Belgium's.<br /><br />Blake may get this question often about sake (so do I), but I often lead straight in to explaining how US sake production is really just getting started. The water issue, I believe, is overrated. And soon the conditions may align for proper sake rice production.<br /><br />And regarding Blake's 2nd point in the comments: An increase in domestic production and consumption of that product will do nothing but drive demand for Japanese sake. This is not a zero-sum game. And having a local angle is powerful for getting people to a new category.Ben Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07763532561255926088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-13858926580039013272011-11-14T10:37:38.471-05:002011-11-14T10:37:38.471-05:00Blake:
It is very disappointing that you chose to...Blake:<br /> It is very disappointing that you chose to ignore numerous points that I raised in my post. Should I assume that you concede all of the points of which you failed to respond?<br /><br />Your initial post made a very general statement about Japanese sake. You did not restrict your conclusion to premium sake, which occupies only 25% of Japanese sake. That might have been your intent but it wasn't what you wrote.<br /><br />75% of Japanese sake production is futsu-shu, and though much is very poor quality, there is some good futsushu as well. And contrary to what you said, yes, futsushu does get imported into the US. I have seen it and tasted it in MA.<br /><br />Did you even read my post? I stated that most premium sake is better than US sake. But some of those premium sakes also do use table rice rather than sake rice.<br /><br />You wanted to be nice to SakeOne? I don't believe it. You even stated in the post that it was mean. You would not have said the same things about a winery.<br /><br />No chip on my shoulder. Reread my words. Yes, their lengthy experience obviously translates into better quality. But I don't think it is fair to judge US sake on that basis. As I said, the better question is how US sake has improved with time, an issue you ignored in your reply.<br /><br />In your second point, you once again try to use a single example to prove a general conclusion. Again, that is improper. SakeOne does have fruit infused sakes, but what about all of the other US sake breweries? <br /><br />It is not an either/or position of support. One can support both US producers and Japanese. I agree that Japanese premium sake is generally better than US sake. But there are other issues involved as well.Richard Auffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03948647697847819742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-61398301042519694932011-11-14T10:35:56.257-05:002011-11-14T10:35:56.257-05:00Not having tasted any US sake yet (and having tast...Not having tasted any US sake yet (and having tasted lamentably little Japanese sake) I can't speak from experience here, but it certainly seems as though Blake is overgeneralizing based on one producer. At the same time, I doubt his "rule" was ever intended to mean "All Japanese sake is better than all US sake," so your argument about futsu-shu is a little unfair. I took his comment more to mean "the best US sake still can't compete with the best Japanese sake," and even if he hasn't tasted enough to make this assertion, you seem to agree with that (for now). <br /><br />But I think your points placing the US sake industry in context are well-argued, and that the trend of improvement you've noticed is significant, especially given the fact that the industry is still so small. Only one new sake brewery in over 6 months, for a grand total of 7? Of COURSE we're not competitive with Japan yet. But it's also exciting to watch the industry grow, because each new brewery, by virtue of their paucity, automatically has the potential to become a major player in the US sake game and elevate the reputation of American sake considerably. I look forward to drinking more, from both countries.<br /><br />Also...survived Prohibition AND WWII? What finally killed the Honolulu Sake Brewery?Jasonhttp://www.convictedforgrape.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-63706387245345336572011-11-14T10:16:21.456-05:002011-11-14T10:16:21.456-05:00Bravo, Richard. I concede the point that SakeOne, ...Bravo, Richard. I concede the point that SakeOne, and probably other American sake breweries as well, can make sake that's just as good as the cheap, low-quality Japanese sakes that aren't exported here. <br /><br />Will you concede this point? I can easily walk into True Sake and buy 50 Japanese sakes that are better than anything made in the US. And I could do that even if the sakes had bags over them so that I couldn't see the brands. The difference between good Japanese sake and the very best American sake is still that great.<br /><br />I wanted to be nice to SakeOne in my post; they're nice people. I don't need to run them down, and I don't need to do it here, either. <br /><br />But I do want to make two points:<br /><br />1) You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the fact that the Japanese have been brewing sake for centuries, as if we should throw that out the window when comparing products. Why? If the sakes are better because of experience, then they're better.<br /><br />2) Take a moment to think about who you should really support, and sympathize with.<br /><br />On the one hand, you have American entrepreneurs trying to make a product without much history here. They're trying to carve out a new market and doing it mostly by adding fruit flavorings to sake. Didn't SakeOne tell you their flavored sakes are their top sellers? Now, you can make an argument that wine coolers brought people to wine, and I'll listen patiently to that argument.<br /><br />But let's look at the other side. <br />Though Japanese sake has never been better, thanks to technological advances atop of the centuries of brewing history, Japanese sake brewers are facing very difficult economic times. Japan's economy was weak BEFORE the tsunami and nuclear crisis. Young Japanese are drinking beer, shochu, and increasingly wine. Sake sales aren't growing in Japan. And now, sake brewers hoping to export have to deal with the stigma of the nuclear crisis. I know that sake from, say, Kyoto or (ironically) Hiroshima is a long way from the nuclear plant in Fukushima, but how many Americans know that?<br /><br />You can wave the Star Spangled Banner and say, "Support American sake!" and I won't stop you. I'm also a proud American. <br /><br />But my sympathies lie with the Japanese brewers, who are underpaid craftsmen, not slick marketers. And I'm afraid you'll have to concede the point that their best, and even their merely good, sakes are still way better than ours.<br /><br /> If you don't want to concede it, let's stage a Judgment of USA tasting of sake, proceeds to reconstruction in northern Japan. Deal?W. Blake Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17755307711801965966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2405633513402883204.post-65040823215123234292011-11-14T09:06:52.653-05:002011-11-14T09:06:52.653-05:00I recognize where that photo came from!I recognize where that photo came from!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13852163055044346935noreply@blogger.com